A big league pitcher talks about throwing submarine

Scott Sullivan, at right, throws sidearm. He's made a career of it, pitching most recently for the Reds (in 2002 and 2003) and the Kansas City Royals (in 2004).

"My arm isn't equipped to throw on top," Sullivan said once in a newspaper interview. "It's uncomfortable for me. Even when I play long toss, I throw everything from my sidearm slot."

Reds closer, Danny Graves, doesn't throw submarine-style. He's not a sidewinder or submariner. He throws overhand gas.

"Throwing sidearm is a lot harder than people think," Graves said. "I tried it when I was younger, but my arm didn't feel right. I could never find that proper arm slot. It didn't feel healthy for me. Some guys can do it. A lot of guys can't. That's why you don't see many of them." (Most major league teams don't draft side-arm guys either, which is why you don't see a lot of them.)

But Sullivan said that if you find the proper arm slot and can keep it there, your pitching arm probably will last. "The overhand and three-quarter motions are not the way the arm was built to throw," he said.

"If you look at the pitching motion in slow motion (of guys who throw overhand), it's the most unnatural motion you could possibly put your shoulder and elbow through," Sullivan said. "You look at a still photo of it, and their elbow's here and their wrist is straight back. It's a tremendous amount of torque on your shoulder and elbow. My arm isn't equipped to throw on top. It's uncomfortable for me. Even when I play long-toss, I throw everything from my sidearm slot."

What do you teach? How do you pitch? Do you throw sidearm? If Sullivan was a pitcher on your baseball team -- or your son -- how would you instruct him? (And if you're a coach, would you let him continue to throw from "down under" if, say, you had him as a pitcher on your Little League baseball team?

Enter your comments below...

Comments

[dean]

If done correctly, throwing side arm is better for your arm, shoulder, and elbow. But yes, if mechanics are sloppy, it can be dangerous. Throwing over the top is the most unatural thing to do to your body on the diamond. Long live side-winders.

[Ryan]

My son(a 12yo) is a mid to hi 3/4 pitcher. I have as well as many coaches tryed to get him to throw "over the top" but he says it feels funny. Now I have given up and it and it has been the best season so far. He can pitch faster and longer(more pitches) than ever before. Last night he pitched a 1 hitter and only walked 1 batter in a 6 inning little league game he had 17 K's and one kid hit a foul pop up the catcher caught for the other out. I will never try and change a players natrel arm slot again.

[Jeff]

When I was young, I played a lot of backyard baseball and little league. I always tried pitching "over the top", but I never had any control or stamina.

One day, (being a big David Cone fan) I decided to try throwing side arm. I was amazed at how natural it felt. I didn't have to fight the ball when I threw, and my control was unbelievable. For the rest of my youth, pitching sidearm was it.

After 13 years of not playing ball, I recently joined a mens league and started pitching again. Not surprisingly, there was a lot I had to relearn. My first game was horrible, tons of fly balls and line drives, lots of walks and my arm was killing me for the next two weeks (almost to the point that I was thinking of quiting). I quickly went to work on my mechanics. Forced myself to keep my shoulder from flying open and to let my natural motion take over.

Results have been great. I can pitch 5+ innings without any arm issues. I'm getting 95% ground balls or infield Pop ups and more K's than even.

[Jeff]

When I was young, I played a lot of backyard baseball and little league. I always tried pitching "over the top", but I never had any control or stamina.

One day, (being a big David Cone fan) I decided to try throwing side arm. I was amazed at how natural it felt. I didn't have to fight the ball when I threw, and my control was unbelievable. For the rest of my youth, pitching sidearm was it.

After 13 years of not playing ball, I recently joined a mens league and started pitching again. Not surprisingly, there was a lot I had to relearn. My first game was horrible, tons of fly balls and line drives, lots of walks and my arm was killing me for the next two weeks (almost to the point that I was thinking of quiting). I quickly went to work on my mechanics. Forced myself to keep my shoulder from flying open and to let my natural motion take over.

Results have been great. I can pitch 5+ innings without any arm issues. I'm getting 95% ground balls or infield Pop ups and more K's than even.

[Jeff]

When I was young, I played a lot of backyard baseball and little league. I always tried pitching "over the top", but I never had any control or stamina.

One day, (being a big David Cone fan) I decided to try throwing side arm. I was amazed at how natural it felt. I didn't have to fight the ball when I threw, and my control was unbelievable. For the rest of my youth, pitching sidearm was it.

After 13 years of not playing ball, I recently joined a mens league and started pitching again. Not surprisingly, there was a lot I had to relearn. My first game was horrible, tons of fly balls and line drives, lots of walks and my arm was killing me for the next two weeks (almost to the point that I was thinking of quiting). I quickly went to work on my mechanics. Forced myself to keep my shoulder from flying open and to let my natural motion take over.

Results have been great. I can pitch 5+ innings without any arm issues. I'm getting 95% ground balls or infield Pop ups and more K's than even.

[Kris]

I am a sidearm/submarine pitcher. My coaches keep trying to get me to throw overhand but it feels weird for me. He doesnt want to use me if I throw sidearm. If i pitch i throw overhand and maybe mix things up with 1 sidearm here and there. When I throw overhand though, my shoulder hurts sometimes. With sidearm it rarely hurts. Will it only hurt when its severe?
Is pitching sidearm better? What about sidearm like Randy Johnson? Is that bad for the elbow too?
Please reply at kris_between_the_posts@hotmail.com

[Slinger]

I am glad that people are finally talking about the side arm delivery in pitching. It always frustrated me when people told me to stop throwing side-arm in junior ball. There is no basis for the claim that "over the top" is better for your arm. I agree completely with the previous comments about how un-natural conventional pitching is. I have to laugh when I hear that scouts take a pass on a guy who throws side-arm because it will cost $40,000 to re-pair his arm. The sheer number of arm injuries to pitcher's arms is staggering. At every level, not just in the majors. Our current coaching mentality has had pitching backward for many many years. Look at Fast Pitch softball. Those guys can throw for inning after inning because the motion of pitching for them is so natural! The more you can throw under-hand, or side arm the better; common sense should tell us!

Walter Johnson, the Hall of Fame pitcher, wrote a great book about pitching in which he talks about never throwing too hard, about using your whole body and its natural tenancies. Those old time pitchers may not have had 95 mph fastballs but they had stamina, longevity, complete games and WINS! Most importantly they used common sense and avoided injuries.

Young pitchers need to trust themselves more and their instincts. If side-arm works for them, go with it.

[Slinger]

I am glad that people are finally talking about the side arm delivery in pitching. It always frustrated me when people told me to stop throwing side-arm in junior ball. There is no basis for the claim that "over the top" is better for your arm. I agree completely with the previous comments about how un-natural conventional pitching is. I have to laugh when I hear that scouts take a pass on a guy who throws side-arm because it will cost $40,000 to re-pair his arm. The sheer number of arm injuries to pitcher's arms is staggering. At every level, not just in the majors. Our current coaching mentality has had pitching backward for many many years. Look at Fast Pitch softball. Those guys can throw for inning after inning because the motion of pitching for them is so natural! The more you can throw under-hand, or side arm the better; common sense should tell us!

Walter Johnson, the Hall of Fame pitcher, wrote a great book about pitching in which he talks about never throwing too hard, about using your whole body and its natural tenancies. Those old time pitchers may not have had 95 mph fastballs but they had stamina, longevity, complete games and WINS! Most importantly they used common sense and avoided injuries.

Young pitchers need to trust themselves more and their instincts. If side-arm works for them, go with it.

[anthony]

well i personally am a highschool senior. i play my summer ball in texas with the big boys. Im a pitcher at my highschool and last year i was 7-1 with a 1.67 era. However i do throw over the top.... 9/10 times. About 5-7 times a game i will drop down, When i play summer ball in texas its more around 10-20. I throw about 81-82 on average and from the side its about 80. the deception is just amazing. u highly recommend it for any one who feels comfortable with it. I really enjoy it and i love to practice it. The movement i am getting on my fastball and curve is lovely. I dd get recrited as a pitcer but over the top. Not down under. but if i want to pitch after college i feel like down under is the way to go, i just dont throw hard enough from over the top to get the looks i need. In texas the side arm really helped me and i have looked for alot of coaches that know about it. hardly any know how to teach it. i really like what this guy had to say about it.

[Ryan O]

I have just recently found out that pitching over hand is no longer suitable for my arm. I have loose joits and am only 16. The doctor said i had a 33 percent chance id never throw again and a 66 percent chance I'd be able to throw but very limited. I was in physical therapy strengthening my shoulder and my physical therapist said that I should start throwing side arm. It relieves all of the pain off your shoulder. And if done correctly shouldnt cause elbow problems. I am currently swiching to side arm because theres no way in hell im giving up pitching.

[Wade Bush]

hey guys, i am a freshman at Indiana State University, and play division 1 baseball there.. of course if i am commenting on this post, then i throw a low sidearm or even submarine arm slot. I was wondering if anyone had any tips or anything that i could check out, or even someone in the midwest area that i could work with, because i know that you can always get better... Anything helps and God Bless!